Causes and Solutions to PIP problems

[BIGDADDY]

I figured i'd share this information that helped me get through the extreme pip i had with some over concentrated gear. I constantly see posts and questions about dealing with this, so heres the information that helped me.

What causes (non infection related) injection pain?


first the shorter the ester, the higher the melting point
secind, the concentration of the gear.
third, the solvents used.
fourth, injecting too quickly
fifth, virgin muscle.



Pain is caused when the oil/solvents are absorbed by the body and crystals are left behind.
Short esters (propionate or acetate) are harder, more painful crystals with melting points in the 100c range.
A hormone with a longer esters (excluding cypionate - cyp is long but also high melting point) can have a melting point in the 20c-40c range. not far off from human body temp.

Pain is also caused by concentration of your gear.
Building off of point 1: Let's say it takes the body 24 hours to absorb 1mL of a certain oil/solvent blend, and 24 hours to absorb 50mg of Testosterone Propionate. If 50mg (or less) of testosterone propionate is in 1mL of that oil, this injection should be painless. On the other hand, if 100mg of testosterone propionate is in that same 1mL of solution, then after 24 hours the body will have absorbed 50mg and 1mL, leaving 50mg behind in the injection area, crystalized and painful.

Its better to shoot 3mL of 50mg/mL Testosterone Propionate than 1mL of 150mg/mL Testosterone Propionate.

This is also why water based suspensions (Testosterone base/no ester, Winstrol ) hurt the most, water is very easily absorbed in the body

The solvents used can cause pain in 2 ways. Benzyl alcohol (BA) is used at 1%-2% as a preservative and antiseptic. If the alcohol content is too high the gear will burn. Pain in the first 24 hours is usually caused by heavy solvents, pain in the next few hours is usually cause by crystalization. Another way is a bad recipe. if someone used 2% BA, and the rest of the solution oil, the mg/mL would have to be low due to oil's weak ability to hold crystals. On the other hand, a recipe like 2% BA, 5% Guaiacol (super solvent), 10% Benzyl Salicylate (liquid asprin) with the filler split 50:50 between Ethyl Oleate (oil/solvent hybrid) and normal oil should be far less painful.

If you inject too quickly it can tear tissue.

If your muscle is new to the hormone, it will absorb the hormone very slowly, but absorb the oil/solvent very quickly. This will cause more crystalization and pain. As your muscles recognize the hormones, they will be absorbed more quickly, thus less pain. The deeper you inject into the center of a muscle group, the better.

How do I prevent pain before I inject?

Cut your shots 50:50 with sterile filtered oil. If you want to use 50mg of Testosterone Propionate, and you have 100mg/mL Testosterone Propionate- pull 0.5mL of your test prop, and 0.5mL of sterile filtered oil to shoot 1mL of 50mg/mL Testosterone Propionate. This is the #1 best way.
Dont bother with b-12, its water based- absorbed so quickly it will have little to no impact.

Before you shoot, it can help to warm your gear some (especially suspensions). You could put the vial in the bathroom sink and let hot water run over the vial for 2 minutes, and shake well. This will lower the oils viscosity also making it easier it pull into the syringe.

Inject slowly, take 30 seconds per mL. Use a 25g pin to inject so it forces you to move slowly.

If none of these work you could have dirty gear. Its possible there could be particles (although bacteriostatic) in the gear that are not causing infection, but still cause in site infection that made it through a filter.

How do I deal with pain once I have it?

The worst thing you can do is ice it. Cold will help the crystals fall out of solution/suspension.
Its okay to take some ibuprofin to decrease the swelling, and help with pain.
Also being in a hot tub, or jacuzzi, or warm bubble bath will help melt the crystals down. Using a heating pad can help also.

[41154135]

i would not use ibuprofin, only on extreme cases like using primo ace lolol :P
but hot bath is good enough (at least for me), and inject on glutes

[BIGDADDY]

Something I found also is if you heat it up too hot and inject, the needle will literally explode when pressing.

[kalliste73]

i usually like to warm my products before to inject them and the difference with sides on the point of injection is very wide.
Especially with TEST, i dunno why... (250mg/ml)

[Sandhawk]

1cc of Lean Gain in each bicep was the worst. Biceps were also virgins at the time hahahah. 2nd time around, almost no pip

[Nitrox]

Heating thick oil with a hair dryer before injection helps reduce its viscosity [ Bayer Schering Test-e comes to mind].

[Nitrox]

Cut your shots 50:50 with sterile filtered oil. If you want to use 50mg of Testosterone Propionate, and you have 100mg/mL Testosterone Propionate- pull 0.5mL of your test prop, and 0.5mL of sterile filtered oil to shoot 1mL of 50mg/mL Testosterone Propionate. This is the #1 best way.
Dont bother with b-12, its water based- absorbed so quickly it will have little to no impact.

I didnt know we could do this... Does the raw get suspended properly if we cut it with oil before injection...?

With the pain test-prop gives, heck Id rather shoot 2 ml than deal with the pain that 1 ml shells out.

[Kalika ke Akua]

I try to get deep in the muscle and sometimes I do run it under some warm water to increase it's viscosity some. I have some test that i crippling and i use to keep EQ on hand to cut it or something cause it was unbearable last time. My whole ass cheek was red and hot. I sucked big time. Never tried bayer schering Test E but heard it is top notch and their Primo as well.

[SMonMTS]

I try to get deep in the muscle and sometimes I do run it under some warm water to increase it's viscosity some. I have some test that i crippling and i use to keep EQ on hand to cut it or something cause it was unbearable last time. My whole ass cheek was red and hot. I sucked big time. Never tried bayer schering Test E but heard it is top notch and their Primo as well.

That sounds like badly made test to be honest. I had some thick ugl stuff a while back that seemed to take ages to absorb and sometimes gave irritation. Suspect quality ... Plus it was under dosed too

[Serotonin101]

Cut your shots 50:50 with sterile filtered oil. If you want to use 50mg of Testosterone Propionate, and you have 100mg/mL Testosterone Propionate- pull 0.5mL of your test prop, and 0.5mL of sterile filtered oil to shoot 1mL of 50mg/mL Testosterone Propionate. This is the #1 best way.
Dont bother with b-12, its water based- absorbed so quickly it will have little to no impact.

I didnt know we could do this... Does the raw get suspended properly if we cut it with oil before injection...?

With the pain test-prop gives, heck Id rather shoot 2 ml than deal with the pain that 1 ml shells out.

The raw isn't "suspended" but is held in solution. A suspension is non dissolved particles that are visible and flowing freely in a liquid medium (think of a snow globe). A solution is solute (hormone powder) dissolved in a liquid which isn't visible to naked eye as the molecules of the solute fit between the molecules of the solvent (hormone dissolved in oil/bb/eo etc).
When it comes to a suspension, the powder inside isn't always homogeneous and can clump or just be floating more in a certain space of the liquid causing uneven distribution. When in a solution, such as our oil preparations, the distribution is homogeneous so there is equal parts of hormone in every bit of the oil. This means that the addition of sterile oil or any oil that isn't completely saturated (the oil can hold additional hormone, some use vet grade eq to dilute which is dosed 50mg/ml which is far from being at saturation point), the hormone(s) become equally distributed throughout the new solution. Thus for the example of 100mg/ml prop, the addition of sterile oil creates a new solution of 50mg/ml. If using another oil with hormones in it such as the vet grade eq, it would yield 50mg prop and 25mg eq per ml. Hope this helps explain the process a bit more.

[BIGDADDY]

The raw isn't "suspended" but is held in solution. A suspension is non dissolved particles that are visible and flowing freely in a liquid medium (think of a snow globe). A solution is solute (hormone powder) dissolved in a liquid which isn't visible to naked eye as the molecules of the solute fit between the molecules of the solvent (hormone dissolved in oil/bb/eo etc).
When it comes to a suspension, the powder inside isn't always homogeneous and can clump or just be floating more in a certain space of the liquid causing uneven distribution. When in a solution, such as our oil preparations, the distribution is homogeneous so there is equal parts of hormone in every bit of the oil. This means that the addition of sterile oil or any oil that isn't completely saturated (the oil can hold additional hormone, some use vet grade eq to dilute which is dosed 50mg/ml which is far from being at saturation point), the hormone(s) become equally distributed throughout the new solution. Thus for the example of 100mg/ml prop, the addition of sterile oil creates a new solution of 50mg/ml. If using another oil with hormones in it such as the vet grade eq, it would yield 50mg prop and 25mg eq per ml. Hope this helps explain the process a bit more.

excellent information

[Serotonin101]

And as always shake your suspensions very well! This will help break up any clumped crystals and should provide more accurate dosing.

Also, for those of you not using mts grade gear, if your gear is super saturated (the oil contains more hormone than its suppose to) then it can crash in colder climates. If your gear repeatedly crashes even after warming, swirling, etc. Then add sterile oil in a similar fashion as was discussed for reducing pip. This will dilute the solution allowing the hormone to go back into solution when heated and swirled. Gear that repeatedly crashes can cause significant pip as well due to the fact it can crash in your muscle tissue leaving hormone crystals that cause irritation.

Primo is notorious for pip due to the fact it's melting point is above body temp so it often crashes in muscle tissue.

Also push slow on plunger when injecting to minimize muscle tissue trauma from the pressure of the oil entering it. I've added multiple ml to a shot and just pushed it slow and had NO pip due to slower stretching of muscle fascia. This is how injecting seo is possible without crippling the user terribly but that's another topic...

[Chriss]

Mine is always fine now but the "injecting too quickly" was always a mistake i kept making

[minto]

Great post, found I got pip using sust fairly often.

[Serotonin101]

Great post, found I got pip using sust fairly often.
Probably the fast acting prop that's in it. I'm not surprised

[Bucky]

"On the other hand, a recipe like 2% BA, 5% Guaiacol (super solvent), 10% Benzyl Salicylate (liquid asprin) with the filler split 50:50 between Ethyl Oleate (oil/solvent hybrid) and normal oil should be far less painful"

can someone comment on this recipe listed in the initial post? what does the liquid aspirin do? and is the guaiacol the solvent responsible for some of the larger mg/ml blends we see on here? for example the 500mg/ml EQ?

[Serotonin101]

"On the other hand, a recipe like 2% BA, 5% Guaiacol (super solvent), 10% Benzyl Salicylate (liquid asprin) with the filler split 50:50 between Ethyl Oleate (oil/solvent hybrid) and normal oil should be far less painful"

can someone comment on this recipe listed in the initial post? what does the liquid aspirin do? and is the guaiacol the solvent responsible for some of the larger mg/ml blends we see on here? for example the 500mg/ml EQ?

Liquid aspirin should reduce swelling and inflammation and provide a local analgesic effect. Guiacol is responsible for some of the retarded high mg/ml you see in gear. Ethyl oleate holds hormones well too and is as thin if not more so than water providing the user to use a small gauge pin minimizing tissue trauma. Also higher dosed gear made well means less oil in the depot=faster absorption =less time the foreign item is spent in the body=less body response to "invaders". Without these super solvents, it'd be hard to get high dosed gear especially the "no ester" versions as lacking an ester makes them less soluble in fats (oil). The only issue I see with Guiacol is the nasty smell lol

[Bucky]

Liquid aspirin should reduce swelling and inflammation and provide a local analgesic effect. Guiacol is responsible for some of the retarded high mg/ml you see in gear. Ethyl oleate holds hormones well too and is as thin if not more so than water providing the user to use a small gauge pin minimizing tissue trauma. Also higher dosed gear made well means less oil in the depot=faster absorption =less time the foreign item is spent in the body=less body response to "invaders". Without these super solvents, it'd be hard to get high dosed gear especially the "no ester" versions as lacking an ester makes them less soluble in fats (oil). The only issue I see with Guiacol is the nasty smell lol

thanks for that explanation sir. as a younger guy, I can't afford strictly mts gear so this recipe could actually help me out with my cheaper option I have to use sometimes. I will agree though guaiacol smells absolutely terrible haha.

[tunechi]

Pinning it nice and slow is a v.good tip

[Serotonin101]

Pinning it nice and slow is a v.good tip

Yep, just pinned 4.25ml last night super slow and no pip today. Might be a bit sore later I work a bit but I'll be fine that's for sure.

[Bucky]

Yep, just pinned 4.25ml last night super slow and no pip today. Might be a bit sore later I work a bit but I'll be fine that's for sure.

yes, going slow can help a lot. even when using a slin pin for my cruising trt dosage, i can give myself pip from .5cc from pushing it in too quickly.

[Eschaton92]

Good post

Was actually really surprised that I got no PIP at all from your super tren. I get PIP from most UG labs out there and was really happy to find MTS doesn't give any.

Awesome stuff.

[Serotonin101]

I'm pinning 5ml twice a week with about half the gear being mts. No pip. Honestly I think my glutes can take more but my thumb tires as is from pushing that much oil.

[naik_n70]

I had taken some extremely painful 200mg per ml fast acting test of one thailand brand.I found heating up the gear in the syringe in a hot water helps with reducing pain.I think it had a high amount of alcohol in it.I also used to take a hot water bath & use a heating pad at times.If its from an underground lab its bound to pain.Nowadays when i started using MTS gear no pip at all.Totally painless.i tried med mutation,shreaded,tren ace & a few other products.

[scottiedog12]

Sunbed helps

[quaphsiel]

i always warm up the vials in the back of my knees for abt 3-5mins before injecting

[Proviron]

Ai use 4 different mts oil . No PIP at all.

[GODZILLA]

very few of our oils give any PIP, what can help is not inject too many ml's at the same time, massage slightly after injection, inject slowly, warm the vials gently just before so it goes in smoother but in general very few to almost none experience PIP with out products. we are specifically making them as such to cause no issues of any kind

[mad4it]

Have to agree with this

I only seem to get some pip when
I'm doing more than 2ml in one area


If I keep it at 2ml or under in one area
Its fine

[james delaney]

technique .anything high in ethyl oleate,i get pip ,some 500plus blends .once the pinis loaded i run keetle fullof hot water over syring depends how thick the oil is

[SamH]

I'm currently using 1ml/EOD of Test Prop and I inject my quads. I heat the oil and inject slowly.

I've been experiencing bad pain in my left leg for over a week now (limping around). I thought I may have hit a nerve because I've never experienced PIP like this in the past.

But now my right leg is very painful also, it may be as I've tried an alternate area of the quad because it was getting very hard to push the oil in on my right leg. Could it be virgin muscle? I'm still injecting the upper outer but in a different part of it.

I haven't been able to train legs for almost 2 weeks now 😣😣😣

[GODZILLA]

our test prop is virtually painless. i would say your injection spot is not optimal

the oil is super smooth and this is an indication that you are either tensing the leg, using wrong needle size and/or injecting in the wrong spot.

try doing shoulders or glutes and see if it helps. but in general our stuff is virtually PIP free, even the high mg/ml blends and let alone the test prop which goes in like hot butter

[AdonisJax]

Big n full I did 1.5 ml first time in quad. Absolute agony 24 hours later for a full week. Same day next week I decided to lower dose 1ml same quad (like a dickhead) 24hours later same again am in absolute pain it's like someone has beaten my leg semi unconscious and I am dragging it along with me. Is this because I can't handle the BnF blend. Because I've have test 400 no pip I've done sust. Tren ace all with no pip. Ps I'm still quite a novice with my steroid intellegience

[kamlm]

Hi all

I was writing about it but maybe I will get better answer here. I'm injecting TEST E and first 2 vials was OK, bought it without discount, another a few vials I bought with discount (site deal)everyone has the same batch number, I have opened 2 of them to check if something will change but still I'm feeling big pain after 2 days from injection, I have no idea where is the problem I don't think that there is problem with concentration, for me this is faulty batch, shame that I don't have different one without discount to check it. Please maybe someone has similar experience and will share how to sort it out to not skip it.

[BobbyC]

Only time I've ever got pip is not sticking to the outer top quadrant of the glute. Safe as houses there

[SupaT]

Honestly had incredible pip when starting my first cycle, unbearable pain for unto ten days in every spot I tried...4/5 weeks in though my body accepted the compounds an I have never had pip since (Multiple cycles). MTS is the holy grail of quality gear, man up and crack on, it'll get better

[emperorcaliano]

I don't I ever had any pip with MTS, probably the smoothest oils on the market!!!
Trust me, if you tried winstrol water base, any oils will feels smooth like butter haha

[Rick123]

Thanks for sharing this solid information MR BIG. Almost everybody gets to deal with PIP once i a while, no matter how experienced you’re.

[oldskoolcool]

I've had the same with mts Decca can't move never mind train this is the worse pain Ive had from gear in 15 years something is not right at all it's been 5 days now.

[MTS-Head Coach]

In the past i have used very bad quality gear and got lumps 2 years on my glutes , imagine the pain? Even Testoviron Bayer hurts for 2 to 3 days and got it from pharmacy. Pain is normal but when this happens every shoot probably your body is inflamed and anything you shoot even top pharma grade Bayer will do the same .
I have this problem and some of my athletes also. I put them on antibiotic amoxiciline and then they can shoot every day no problem .

When you have a huge inflamation on your body from gear , food, disease or anything else your body is completely inflamed and thats why your shoots hurt like that.

[emperorcaliano]

Do you offer switch spot injection bro?

[trapnasty]

Was using the test e for about a year or so, never had any issues. quite liked the the stuff. i was only really using it at a therapeutic, trt dose as i'm getting older. however about six months ago i stopped. i had gotten an order and when i finally began to use the gear from my new order, the next day it would feel like i had been kicked in the ass by a horse. and it would feel like that for several days. thought it was fluke, and switche dto a different cheek only for it to happen again. found an older vial and used that everything was fine. when it ran out, i went back to the stuff that made me sore thinking i would know for sure if it was this different bactch or whatever that was the problem. again, it would always feel like that ass cheek had been kicked by a horse. told a buddy of mine that put me on to mts and he said i must be pinning wrong. but now, just the other day he calls me and says him and his gym bro are having the same issue.

at the time i was hesitant to post and complain because i was a new customer and idk i didn't want to be seen as trying to take advantage cuz idk how would i ever prove something like that? but now that i've heard it from two other friends i'd like to at least put it out there because mts seems liek a solid company and would probably want to identify any issues. no hard feelings but i've been off the shit for a minute and it really sucks. anyone else have this or have advice?

[emperorcaliano]

Was using the test e for about a year or so, never had any issues. quite liked the the stuff. i was only really using it at a therapeutic, trt dose as i'm getting older. however about six months ago i stopped. i had gotten an order and when i finally began to use the gear from my new order, the next day it would feel like i had been kicked in the ass by a horse. and it would feel like that for several days. thought it was fluke, and switche dto a different cheek only for it to happen again. found an older vial and used that everything was fine. when it ran out, i went back to the stuff that made me sore thinking i would know for sure if it was this different bactch or whatever that was the problem. again, it would always feel like that ass cheek had been kicked by a horse. told a buddy of mine that put me on to mts and he said i must be pinning wrong. but now, just the other day he calls me and says him and his gym bro are having the same issue.

at the time i was hesitant to post and complain because i was a new customer and idk i didn't want to be seen as trying to take advantage cuz idk how would i ever prove something like that? but now that i've heard it from two other friends i'd like to at least put it out there because mts seems liek a solid company and would probably want to identify any issues. no hard feelings but i've been off the shit for a minute and it really sucks. anyone else have this or have advice?

Do you wipe the bottle with alcohol wipes before pulling the product into the serynge ?

Do you have other bottle on hand you can use?

Did you tried to email MTS?

I’ve been using MTS since 2017, I had this issue once, MTS fixed it.

This type stuff can happen, it is very rare with such a good brand, but can happen