Causes and Solutions to PIP problems

I figured i'd share this information that helped me get through the extreme pip i had with some over concentrated gear. I constantly see posts and questions about dealing with this, so heres the information that helped me.

What causes (non infection related) injection pain?

• first the shorter the ester, the higher the melting point
  
• secind, the concentration of the gear.
  
• third, the solvents used.
  
• fourth, injecting too quickly
  
• fifth, virgin muscle.
  

Pain is caused when the oil/solvents are absorbed by the body and crystals are left behind.
Short esters (propionate or acetate) are harder, more painful crystals with melting points in the 100c range.
A hormone with a longer esters (excluding cypionate - cyp is long but also high melting point) can have a melting point in the 20c-40c range. not far off from human body temp.

Pain is also caused by concentration of your gear.
Building off of point 1: Let's say it takes the body 24 hours to absorb 1mL of a certain oil/solvent blend, and 24 hours to absorb 50mg of Testosterone Propionate. If 50mg (or less) of testosterone propionate is in 1mL of that oil, this injection should be painless. On the other hand, if 100mg of testosterone propionate is in that same 1mL of solution, then after 24 hours the body will have absorbed 50mg and 1mL, leaving 50mg behind in the injection area, crystalized and painful.

Its better to shoot 3mL of 50mg/mL Testosterone Propionate than 1mL of 150mg/mL Testosterone Propionate.

This is also why water based suspensions (Testosterone base/no ester, Winstrol ) hurt the most, water is very easily absorbed in the body

The solvents used can cause pain in 2 ways. Benzyl alcohol (BA) is used at 1%-2% as a preservative and antiseptic. If the alcohol content is too high the gear will burn. Pain in the first 24 hours is usually caused by heavy solvents, pain in the next few hours is usually cause by crystalization. Another way is a bad recipe. if someone used 2% BA, and the rest of the solution oil, the mg/mL would have to be low due to oil's weak ability to hold crystals. On the other hand, a recipe like 2% BA, 5% Guaiacol (super solvent), 10% Benzyl Salicylate (liquid asprin) with the filler split 50:50 between Ethyl Oleate (oil/solvent hybrid) and normal oil should be far less painful.

If you inject too quickly it can tear tissue.

If your muscle is new to the hormone, it will absorb the hormone very slowly, but absorb the oil/solvent very quickly. This will cause more crystalization and pain. As your muscles recognize the hormones, they will be absorbed more quickly, thus less pain. The deeper you inject into the center of a muscle group, the better.

How do I prevent pain before I inject?

Cut your shots 50:50 with sterile filtered oil. If you want to use 50mg of Testosterone Propionate, and you have 100mg/mL Testosterone Propionate- pull 0.5mL of your test prop, and 0.5mL of sterile filtered oil to shoot 1mL of 50mg/mL Testosterone Propionate. This is the #1 best way.
Dont bother with b-12, its water based- absorbed so quickly it will have little to no impact.

Before you shoot, it can help to warm your gear some (especially suspensions). You could put the vial in the bathroom sink and let hot water run over the vial for 2 minutes, and shake well. This will lower the oils viscosity also making it easier it pull into the syringe.

Inject slowly, take 30 seconds per mL. Use a 25g pin to inject so it forces you to move slowly.

If none of these work you could have dirty gear. Its possible there could be particles (although bacteriostatic) in the gear that are not causing infection, but still cause in site infection that made it through a filter.

How do I deal with pain once I have it?

The worst thing you can do is ice it. Cold will help the crystals fall out of solution/suspension.
Its okay to take some ibuprofin to decrease the swelling, and help with pain.
Also being in a hot tub, or jacuzzi, or warm bubble bath will help melt the crystals down. Using a heating pad can help also.

i would not use ibuprofin, only on extreme cases like using primo ace lolol :P
but hot bath is good enough (at least for me), and inject on glutes

Something I found also is if you heat it up too hot and inject, the needle will literally explode when pressing.

i usually like to warm my products before to inject them and the difference with sides on the point of injection is very wide.
Especially with TEST, i dunno why... (250mg/ml)

1cc of Lean Gain in each bicep was the worst. Biceps were also virgins at the time hahahah. 2nd time around, almost no pip

Heating thick oil with a hair dryer before injection helps reduce its viscosity [ Bayer Schering Test-e comes to mind].

Cut your shots 50:50 with sterile filtered oil. If you want to use 50mg of Testosterone Propionate, and you have 100mg/mL Testosterone Propionate- pull 0.5mL of your test prop, and 0.5mL of sterile filtered oil to shoot 1mL of 50mg/mL Testosterone Propionate. This is the #1 best way.
Dont bother with b-12, its water based- absorbed so quickly it will have little to no impact.

I didnt know we could do this... Does the raw get suspended properly if we cut it with oil before injection...?

With the pain test-prop gives, heck Id rather shoot 2 ml than deal with the pain that 1 ml shells out.

I try to get deep in the muscle and sometimes I do run it under some warm water to increase it's viscosity some. I have some test that i crippling and i use to keep EQ on hand to cut it or something cause it was unbearable last time. My whole ass cheek was red and hot. I sucked big time. Never tried bayer schering Test E but heard it is top notch and their Primo as well.

Kalika ke Akua wrote:I try to get deep in the muscle and sometimes I do run it under some warm water to increase it's viscosity some. I have some test that i crippling and i use to keep EQ on hand to cut it or something cause it was unbearable last time. My whole ass cheek was red and hot. I sucked big time. Never tried bayer schering Test E but heard it is top notch and their Primo as well.

That sounds like badly made test to be honest. I had some thick ugl stuff a while back that seemed to take ages to absorb and sometimes gave irritation. Suspect quality ... Plus it was under dosed too

Nitrox wrote:Cut your shots 50:50 with sterile filtered oil. If you want to use 50mg of Testosterone Propionate, and you have 100mg/mL Testosterone Propionate- pull 0.5mL of your test prop, and 0.5mL of sterile filtered oil to shoot 1mL of 50mg/mL Testosterone Propionate. This is the #1 best way.
Dont bother with b-12, its water based- absorbed so quickly it will have little to no impact.

I didnt know we could do this... Does the raw get suspended properly if we cut it with oil before injection...?

With the pain test-prop gives, heck Id rather shoot 2 ml than deal with the pain that 1 ml shells out.

The raw isn't "suspended" but is held in solution. A suspension is non dissolved particles that are visible and flowing freely in a liquid medium (think of a snow globe). A solution is solute (hormone powder) dissolved in a liquid which isn't visible to naked eye as the molecules of the solute fit between the molecules of the solvent (hormone dissolved in oil/bb/eo etc).
When it comes to a suspension, the powder inside isn't always homogeneous and can clump or just be floating more in a certain space of the liquid causing uneven distribution. When in a solution, such as our oil preparations, the distribution is homogeneous so there is equal parts of hormone in every bit of the oil. This means that the addition of sterile oil or any oil that isn't completely saturated (the oil can hold additional hormone, some use vet grade eq to dilute which is dosed 50mg/ml which is far from being at saturation point), the hormone(s) become equally distributed throughout the new solution. Thus for the example of 100mg/ml prop, the addition of sterile oil creates a new solution of 50mg/ml. If using another oil with hormones in it such as the vet grade eq, it would yield 50mg prop and 25mg eq per ml. Hope this helps explain the process a bit more.

Serotonin101 wrote:The raw isn't "suspended" but is held in solution. A suspension is non dissolved particles that are visible and flowing freely in a liquid medium (think of a snow globe). A solution is solute (hormone powder) dissolved in a liquid which isn't visible to naked eye as the molecules of the solute fit between the molecules of the solvent (hormone dissolved in oil/bb/eo etc).
When it comes to a suspension, the powder inside isn't always homogeneous and can clump or just be floating more in a certain space of the liquid causing uneven distribution. When in a solution, such as our oil preparations, the distribution is homogeneous so there is equal parts of hormone in every bit of the oil. This means that the addition of sterile oil or any oil that isn't completely saturated (the oil can hold additional hormone, some use vet grade eq to dilute which is dosed 50mg/ml which is far from being at saturation point), the hormone(s) become equally distributed throughout the new solution. Thus for the example of 100mg/ml prop, the addition of sterile oil creates a new solution of 50mg/ml. If using another oil with hormones in it such as the vet grade eq, it would yield 50mg prop and 25mg eq per ml. Hope this helps explain the process a bit more.

excellent information

And as always shake your suspensions very well! This will help break up any clumped crystals and should provide more accurate dosing.

Also, for those of you not using mts grade gear, if your gear is super saturated (the oil contains more hormone than its suppose to) then it can crash in colder climates. If your gear repeatedly crashes even after warming, swirling, etc. Then add sterile oil in a similar fashion as was discussed for reducing pip. This will dilute the solution allowing the hormone to go back into solution when heated and swirled. Gear that repeatedly crashes can cause significant pip as well due to the fact it can crash in your muscle tissue leaving hormone crystals that cause irritation.

Primo is notorious for pip due to the fact it's melting point is above body temp so it often crashes in muscle tissue.

Also push slow on plunger when injecting to minimize muscle tissue trauma from the pressure of the oil entering it. I've added multiple ml to a shot and just pushed it slow and had NO pip due to slower stretching of muscle fascia. This is how injecting seo is possible without crippling the user terribly but that's another topic...

Mine is always fine now but the "injecting too quickly" was always a mistake i kept making

Great post, found I got pip using sust fairly often.

minto wrote:Great post, found I got pip using sust fairly often.

Probably the fast acting prop that's in it. I'm not surprised

"On the other hand, a recipe like 2% BA, 5% Guaiacol (super solvent), 10% Benzyl Salicylate (liquid asprin) with the filler split 50:50 between Ethyl Oleate (oil/solvent hybrid) and normal oil should be far less painful"

can someone comment on this recipe listed in the initial post? what does the liquid aspirin do? and is the guaiacol the solvent responsible for some of the larger mg/ml blends we see on here? for example the 500mg/ml EQ?

Bucky wrote:"On the other hand, a recipe like 2% BA, 5% Guaiacol (super solvent), 10% Benzyl Salicylate (liquid asprin) with the filler split 50:50 between Ethyl Oleate (oil/solvent hybrid) and normal oil should be far less painful"

can someone comment on this recipe listed in the initial post? what does the liquid aspirin do? and is the guaiacol the solvent responsible for some of the larger mg/ml blends we see on here? for example the 500mg/ml EQ?

Liquid aspirin should reduce swelling and inflammation and provide a local analgesic effect. Guiacol is responsible for some of the retarded high mg/ml you see in gear. Ethyl oleate holds hormones well too and is as thin if not more so than water providing the user to use a small gauge pin minimizing tissue trauma. Also higher dosed gear made well means less oil in the depot=faster absorption =less time the foreign item is spent in the body=less body response to "invaders". Without these super solvents, it'd be hard to get high dosed gear especially the "no ester" versions as lacking an ester makes them less soluble in fats (oil). The only issue I see with Guiacol is the nasty smell lol

Serotonin101 wrote:Liquid aspirin should reduce swelling and inflammation and provide a local analgesic effect. Guiacol is responsible for some of the retarded high mg/ml you see in gear. Ethyl oleate holds hormones well too and is as thin if not more so than water providing the user to use a small gauge pin minimizing tissue trauma. Also higher dosed gear made well means less oil in the depot=faster absorption =less time the foreign item is spent in the body=less body response to "invaders". Without these super solvents, it'd be hard to get high dosed gear especially the "no ester" versions as lacking an ester makes them less soluble in fats (oil). The only issue I see with Guiacol is the nasty smell lol

thanks for that explanation sir. as a younger guy, I can't afford strictly mts gear so this recipe could actually help me out with my cheaper option I have to use sometimes. I will agree though guaiacol smells absolutely terrible haha.

Been injecting since 1992. The single best thing to eliminate PIP: warm the vial under hot tap water for 90 seconds. Second best: inject slowly. The only time I get PIP now is with high-concentration compounds above 250mg per ml, and even then it is minor after the first week.

Pinning it nice and slow is a v.good tip